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	<title>Comments on: Obscene Profits?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/</link>
	<description>The eclectic ramblings of jonolan</description>
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		<title>By: The Cost Of Treatment &#124; Reflections From a Murky Pond</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-19596</link>
		<dc:creator>The Cost Of Treatment &#124; Reflections From a Murky Pond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-19596</guid>
		<description>[...] Is the inequality of costs based upon the greed of the pharmaceutical companies? That&#8217;s a seductively easy answer, and one that anyone who studied healthcare costs during the battles over ObamaCare would have to say is not totally without merit. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Is the inequality of costs based upon the greed of the pharmaceutical companies? That&#8217;s a seductively easy answer, and one that anyone who studied healthcare costs during the battles over ObamaCare would have to say is not totally without merit. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Unhealthy Consequences &#124; Reflections From a Murky Pond</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-18106</link>
		<dc:creator>Unhealthy Consequences &#124; Reflections From a Murky Pond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 13:13:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-18106</guid>
		<description>[...] final version of Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act would force health insurance providers, which operate at a mere 3 – 4% profit margin, to raise rates and reduce coverage to high-risk clientele or go out of business entirely, leaving [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] final version of Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act would force health insurance providers, which operate at a mere 3 – 4% profit margin, to raise rates and reduce coverage to high-risk clientele or go out of business entirely, leaving [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jonolan</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-14914</link>
		<dc:creator>jonolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Mar 2010 13:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-14914</guid>
		<description>Leisureguy,

When Obama and the rest of the Leftists predicated the bulk of their argument for quasi-nationalizing (as a start) the health insurance industry on a false premise and willfully kept repeating these outright falsehoods, it&#039;s not &quot;non-symmetric sensitivity;&quot; It&#039;s lying, and no amount of Orwellian TrueSpeak can change that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leisureguy,</p>
<p>When Obama and the rest of the Leftists predicated the bulk of their argument for quasi-nationalizing (as a start) the health insurance industry on a false premise and willfully kept repeating these outright falsehoods, it&#8217;s not &#8220;non-symmetric sensitivity;&#8221; It&#8217;s lying, and no amount of Orwellian TrueSpeak can change that.</p>
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		<title>By: Leisureguy</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-14909</link>
		<dc:creator>Leisureguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Mar 2010 21:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-14909</guid>
		<description>Interesting chart. I don&#039;t know about the lying, though. I have seen more lies about healthcare coming from the Right (death panels, pulling the plug on granny, etc.) than from the Left. I suppose there may be some non-symmetric sensitivity, but I think it&#039;s a stretch to call the GOP honest in its messaging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting chart. I don&#8217;t know about the lying, though. I have seen more lies about healthcare coming from the Right (death panels, pulling the plug on granny, etc.) than from the Left. I suppose there may be some non-symmetric sensitivity, but I think it&#8217;s a stretch to call the GOP honest in its messaging.</p>
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		<title>By: An Arm And a Leg &#124; Reflections From a Murky Pond</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-14311</link>
		<dc:creator>An Arm And a Leg &#124; Reflections From a Murky Pond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-14311</guid>
		<description>[...] insurance companies or the hospitals are currently predatory in nature, operating as they do with a 3% &#8211; 4% profit margin, but the current iteration of ObamaCare is likely to change [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] insurance companies or the hospitals are currently predatory in nature, operating as they do with a 3% &#8211; 4% profit margin, but the current iteration of ObamaCare is likely to change [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jonolan</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-12706</link>
		<dc:creator>jonolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-12706</guid>
		<description>zhann,

Firstly, my apologies for the delay in your comment being posted; the number of links in it set off my spam filter and I didn&#039;t notice things right away.

Secondly, my apologies for the further delay in responding to the comment. I&#039;m afraid that I&#039;ve suffered from an attack of life over the last few days.

Anyway...

I can certainly understand your anger at the health insurance companies. You&#039;ve bought the line that the Liberals have been selling you.  But then there is the &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/denying-healthcare/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;factual data&lt;/a&gt; from the AMA itself on the rates of claims denials and the listed reasons for them.

According to the AMA, CIGNA only denied 3.44% of claims, whereas Medicare - a government solution - denied 6.85%, a higher percentage of claims than were denied by any of the ranked private insurers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>zhann,</p>
<p>Firstly, my apologies for the delay in your comment being posted; the number of links in it set off my spam filter and I didn&#8217;t notice things right away.</p>
<p>Secondly, my apologies for the further delay in responding to the comment. I&#8217;m afraid that I&#8217;ve suffered from an attack of life over the last few days.</p>
<p>Anyway&#8230;</p>
<p>I can certainly understand your anger at the health insurance companies. You&#8217;ve bought the line that the Liberals have been selling you.  But then there is the <a href="http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/denying-healthcare/">factual data</a> from the AMA itself on the rates of claims denials and the listed reasons for them.</p>
<p>According to the AMA, CIGNA only denied 3.44% of claims, whereas Medicare &#8211; a government solution &#8211; denied 6.85%, a higher percentage of claims than were denied by any of the ranked private insurers.</p>
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		<title>By: ichabod</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-12693</link>
		<dc:creator>ichabod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-12693</guid>
		<description>Hi Jonolan;

Appears to me, insurance for accident and health, and the people who actually look after patients are on the bottom of you scale.

Your conclusions appear to be correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jonolan;</p>
<p>Appears to me, insurance for accident and health, and the people who actually look after patients are on the bottom of you scale.</p>
<p>Your conclusions appear to be correct.</p>
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		<title>By: zhann</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-12686</link>
		<dc:creator>zhann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-12686</guid>
		<description>The term &#039;obscene&#039; can mean different things to different people.  In my view what is Obscene about Health Insurance Company profits is how they are made ... by denying people their health care.  

My insurance company is CIGNA ... often cited as the most vile insurance company for people dying on their watch, and what not.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/business/07cigna.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Last year their revenue&lt;/a&gt; was $4.4 Billion with profits roughly $220 Million, about 5% which is close to what your table shows.  Now, if we take into account bonuses, perks and the like, these profits would be substantially higher, but lets keep focused on the books.

My argument is that these profits are MORE than sufficient to actually cure people of their ailments, but they refuse.  Just look at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mizozo.com/world/10/2009/09/cigna-employee-flips-off-mother-of-girl-who-died-d....html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Nataline Sarkisyan&lt;/a&gt;, her procedure would have cost pennies for them, but she was denied treatment and died at the ripe age of 17.  There are countless situations like this, and what bothers me most is that the insurance companies aren&#039;t liable for the deaths they cause.  This, in my opinion, is what is obscene about their profits.

While a government solution may not be the ideal option, it can&#039;t possibly be worse than what we have now.  I have been repeating this often over the past few months ... why not run a poll in any western European country asking its citizens if they would give up their current &#039;free&#039; healthcare for the US system ... if you get a 25% response in favor of the US system I would be surprised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The term &#8216;obscene&#8217; can mean different things to different people.  In my view what is Obscene about Health Insurance Company profits is how they are made &#8230; by denying people their health care.  </p>
<p>My insurance company is CIGNA &#8230; often cited as the most vile insurance company for people dying on their watch, and what not.  <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/business/07cigna.html">Last year their revenue</a> was $4.4 Billion with profits roughly $220 Million, about 5% which is close to what your table shows.  Now, if we take into account bonuses, perks and the like, these profits would be substantially higher, but lets keep focused on the books.</p>
<p>My argument is that these profits are MORE than sufficient to actually cure people of their ailments, but they refuse.  Just look at <a href="http://www.mizozo.com/world/10/2009/09/cigna-employee-flips-off-mother-of-girl-who-died-d....html">Nataline Sarkisyan</a>, her procedure would have cost pennies for them, but she was denied treatment and died at the ripe age of 17.  There are countless situations like this, and what bothers me most is that the insurance companies aren&#8217;t liable for the deaths they cause.  This, in my opinion, is what is obscene about their profits.</p>
<p>While a government solution may not be the ideal option, it can&#8217;t possibly be worse than what we have now.  I have been repeating this often over the past few months &#8230; why not run a poll in any western European country asking its citizens if they would give up their current &#8216;free&#8217; healthcare for the US system &#8230; if you get a 25% response in favor of the US system I would be surprised.</p>
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		<title>By: jonolan</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-12679</link>
		<dc:creator>jonolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-12679</guid>
		<description>Actually, you&#039;re the one missing the point. Liberals, led by Obama, Reid and Pelosi have been blaming unseemly profits for the insurance industry as a main reason for healthcare costs. Looking at the truth, that a bald-faced and stupid lie on their part.

Are some the CEO&#039;s overpaid? Seems like it to me, but it largely immaterial to the issue at hand - &lt;em&gt;unless you&#039;re issue is a hatred of the wealthy.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, you&#8217;re the one missing the point. Liberals, led by Obama, Reid and Pelosi have been blaming unseemly profits for the insurance industry as a main reason for healthcare costs. Looking at the truth, that a bald-faced and stupid lie on their part.</p>
<p>Are some the CEO&#8217;s overpaid? Seems like it to me, but it largely immaterial to the issue at hand &#8211; <em>unless you&#8217;re issue is a hatred of the wealthy.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Personal Failure</title>
		<link>http://blog.jonolan.net/politics/obscene-profits/#comment-12678</link>
		<dc:creator>Personal Failure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.jonolan.net/?p=12517#comment-12678</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re missing the point here. Let&#039;s take a look at the bonuses health insurance CEOs made:

$124.8 million total compensation of United Health Group (parent of United Healthcare) CEO William McGuire. 

 Howard Phanstiel, PacifiCare, 3.38 million; Edward Hanway, Cigna, $13.3 million; John Rowe, Aetna, $22.2 million; and Larry Glassrock, Wellpoint, $25.0 million.

McGuire&#039;s compensation was so large as to take a measurable part of this large company&#039;s net income (5%). Or to look at it from a stock-holder&#039;s (and hence, an company owner&#039;s) viewpoint, had McGuire, who is an employee, been only paid a cool million, and this money had been distributed as a dividend, it would amount to about a $0.20 per share dividend. (The current dividend is $0.03 per share.)

To look at it from a United employee&#039;s viewpoint, had McGuire, who is an employee, been only paid a cool million, and this money had been distributed to employees, each of the 40,000 employees could have received a bonus larger than $3000.

To look at it from the viewpoint of the health care system, the $124.8 million total compensation of a single United employee could pay the salaries of 833 general internists at current typical salaries. Or the $124.8 million could run one reasonable size community hospital for a year.


That&#039;s obscene.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re missing the point here. Let&#8217;s take a look at the bonuses health insurance CEOs made:</p>
<p>$124.8 million total compensation of United Health Group (parent of United Healthcare) CEO William McGuire. </p>
<p> Howard Phanstiel, PacifiCare, 3.38 million; Edward Hanway, Cigna, $13.3 million; John Rowe, Aetna, $22.2 million; and Larry Glassrock, Wellpoint, $25.0 million.</p>
<p>McGuire&#8217;s compensation was so large as to take a measurable part of this large company&#8217;s net income (5%). Or to look at it from a stock-holder&#8217;s (and hence, an company owner&#8217;s) viewpoint, had McGuire, who is an employee, been only paid a cool million, and this money had been distributed as a dividend, it would amount to about a $0.20 per share dividend. (The current dividend is $0.03 per share.)</p>
<p>To look at it from a United employee&#8217;s viewpoint, had McGuire, who is an employee, been only paid a cool million, and this money had been distributed to employees, each of the 40,000 employees could have received a bonus larger than $3000.</p>
<p>To look at it from the viewpoint of the health care system, the $124.8 million total compensation of a single United employee could pay the salaries of 833 general internists at current typical salaries. Or the $124.8 million could run one reasonable size community hospital for a year.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s obscene.</p>
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